Consultants to the Visitor Attraction Sector
The Museum Doctor podcast with Lycia Lobo
In this episode, we welcome Lycia Lobo, the Commercial Director of English Heritage Trust, to explore the dynamic world of heritage conservation and commercial innovation.
Lycia shares insights into the organisation's mission to preserve over 400 historic sites, from Stonehenge to Whitby Abbey, while generating sustainable income through diverse streams such as retail, events, and brand licensing.
Discover how English Heritage engages 10 million visitors annually, leverages digital platforms, and collaborates with partners like Airbnb to support their conservation efforts. Join us for an inspiring discussion on balancing heritage preservation with entrepreneurial spirit.
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Get in touch with the Museum Doctor on Paul@xcentuategroup.com
Transcript
Paul: Well, first of all, Lycia, thank you very much for joining us today. Good to see you.
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Lycia: You too. It's great to meet you.
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Paul: And you. I wanted to begin with if you could, tell us a little bit about your role with English Heritage. And for those who don't know, if you could maybe spend a minute or so, just giving us a snapshot of the organisation and how diverse it is.
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Lycia: Yeah. Thank you. so I'm commercial director at English Heritage Trust and I oversee income generation across several business. So that's my main role at English Heritage. for those that aren't aware, we are a charity, we care for 400, monuments, buildings, places, spaces, gardens, everything from Stonehenge to Osborne House, Whitby Abbey to David Castle. we offer spaces to enjoy, visit, eat, shop, hire or even stay if you wish. but ultimately we are here as a conservation and preservation charity to bring history to life for many visitors, and for generations to come. I, think a lot of people aren't aware we're quite infant as a charity. We became a charity in 2015, so not even quite 10 years yet. and it was when English Heritage actually separated into two parts. So you have the English Heritage member based charity, which is us, which looks after the collection, and then you have historic England who champion the nation's kind of wider heritage. They deal with planning matters and give, give grants as well. So, in terms of kind of diversifying, our audiences and what we do and what we offer, English Heritage has recently repositioned, its branding so that we become even more accessible for our visitors and people who come and work and volunteer for us. And we're really committed as an organation now to make sure people are at the heart of everything we do so that everyone really does feel truly valued, respected and really supported for their contribution. Everybody has a different story to tell or a different contribution to make. And I think that's really why, you know, for us div, diversity has now become the heart of how we innovate, but also how we inspire and evolve others so that the communities that we serve are representative in our workforce and our volunteers. So ultimately, I think whatever area of the charity you work for or volunteer for, we all work together collaboratively to kind of build that culture, that encourages diverse voices of our people.
Paul: Excellent. And, quite a lot to unpack there. Can I ask you in terms of everything you've just said and obviously the focus and the mission of the organisation, how Important are commercial revenues to your sustainability.
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Lycia: A huge part. And I think because the fundraising landscape is challenging at the moment. We're all fundraising for the same or similar projects. there are a huge amount of charities at the moment that's really thr and doing really well. But ultimately to conserve and preserve the collections and our spaces over these 400 monuments and places, we do need to generate income and profitable income that we can put back into the conservation of the charity, recruit and maintain talent and resources to be able to do that. And ultimately if we didn't generate the income from those commercial resources we couldn't do what we're doing now. We couldn't reach the populations and the audiences that we're trying to reach. We couldn't open some of our sites for free, which we do and therefore they play a pivotal role. But I think also what it does, it allows us to invest in things like marketing and PR to continue to tell those stories and drive increase in visitation as well.
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Paul: So given the scale of the organisation could you give us an indication of a typical annual attendance figure? Visitor number?
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Lycia: Yeah, we ultimately serve around 10 million visitors a year but around 6 million of those are visiting our kind of a paid for entry site. So the Stonehenges, the Whitby Abbeys, we do have a cohort of free to enter sites where they may be in the heart of the community. They may not have a shop or cafe there but we may put on a light level event programme or do more community or volunteer based activity. and they're great because you don't have to pay if you rem member obviously you've got access to those anyway. but ultimately they're there to really support communities and volunteers, to continue to storytel, England story but also to offer a space to get away. And you think back to during the pandemic where people use these outdoor spaces to relax or exercise. I think ultimately they've become really really important having these open spaces and gardens for people's mental health and wellbeing.
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Paul: Absolutely. And you know we hear a lot more these days about green and blue health, something that we never really heard anything about pre pandemic. you also mentioned membership which is obviously quite an important part of what you do. What sort of membership numbers do you have? Quite significant by the sense of it.
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Lycia: We do. So we've got around 1.2 million members now. Really pleased to say we've bounced back post Pandemic, and those numbers continue to grow. our members are really, really integral to English Heritage and ultimately we couldn't grow or do the things that we want to do without them. And when you think about what our members offer, they're not only an ambassador, they're you know, a natural extension of our voice as volunteers or staff members. But they also support through larger donations. They support by attending maybe events at site. There may be more regular visitors to some of our properties. A lot of our members are quite local or hyper local. and also they contribute in other ways. They give us great feedback to help us evolve our product offer. they are involved in focus groups and ultimate. We're hugely grateful actually to a lot of our members who many become sort of patrons and larger givers.
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Paul: So yeah, very good. So beyond membership and you've mentioned admission income to a number of the sites, could you talk a little bit about some of the other main sources of commercial revenue?
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Lycia: Yeah, so I oversee all the commercial business streams. So they include everything from retail to F and B holiday cottages, rentals, hires, brand licencing, and they make up the main function which is around 25% of our overall income, operating income. so retail and F and B then they're our largest business streams. we've got around 100 shops, we've got an online shop, we've got around 30 cafes. and again they can range from a larger cafe at Stonehenge to a sort of grab and go truck in one of our garden spaces, holiday cottage and rentals also equally important and really really important during the pandemic period as well. Because actually what we found because members predominantly book in our holiday cottages, they kept the money in the business. our rental properties are a mixture of residential properties in commercial lets and again people still needed to live during the pandemic. So again it's a really robust business having a kind of rental business. You do need specialists to run it. But m we have around 20 holiday cottages and around 140 rental properties. So everything from call centres to sports facilities, to as I said private rentals, in there as well. we also have a really busy event programme so everything from your joust to your falconry as sort of bringing history to life. we've got kids dig at Stoneheng trails, spooky walks, calligraphy classes, wreath making, you name it. We try and offer something for everybody whether it's a class or a one off event or experience. And then for me I think some of our really exciting parts of our business are both are thriving and our kind of award winning venue high and filming businesses. So we filmed films like Notting Hill at Kenwood. we've also filmed things like the Crown and Bridgerton series have been filmed at a number of our properties. and then lastly brand licencing, which is predominantly the sales of our brand on product but offs site so through supermarkets, garden centres, et cetera. if you're on a British Airways flight you can now get our crisps English Heritage Crisps on a BA flight. you can buy our sparkling wine from Lathewaiights, or bedding from Marks and Spencer's now. And I think for us that really starts to show that no longer is it just about income generation, it's about brand reach and tapping into other spaces or areas where people might come into contact with your brand. What you've got to offer and can take a piece home or eat or drink or wherever. And I think that's a huge step forward. Although licencing has been around for decades. A huge step forward I think for somewhere like English Heritage to be in that space.
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Paul: Absolutely. And is that an area that has developed over recent years? Has there been a shift? So, what's interesting in terms of what you've just said is when I first started in the visitor attraction field the key thing was visitor numbers. Getting people through the door and volume was critical. it was the top KPI, how many people. But in terms of what you've just shared, it sounds as if that real focus on value. So yes, visitors will always be important but actually how do you think beyond maybe a physical visit? Sounds like it's really key for the organisation.
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Lycia: Yeah, the physical visitor is still very important. You know you can hear in the numbers that I quoted, you know almost 6 million to our paid sites and an extra 4 million, you know whether it's digitally or to our free to enter. And I think yes it is but I think the pandemic really got us sitting up and reminding ourselves that actually at any point our doors can be closed. And it's not just the pandemic. You know, prior to the pandemic we were getting ourselves in a position where we may have been evolving our offer, evolving a product, investing in digital or tech space to advance that M or even just focusing on other areas of business like E commerce. that's mayly now, not enough because the weather and the climate change is really affecting properties that are outdoors. So most of our properties either don't have roofs or, they've got lots of trees around them and there are restrictions in terms of what we can do in terms of opening up to the public and making sure our properties are safe to open up when there's high wind speed. So very recently we've had to close on a number of very busy weekends in the lead up to Christmas where we've had a really packed event programme. and ultimately you still got costs going out but you're not making the money and you have to refund ticket prices and all sorts. So you have to be thinking more broadly, you have to remember what your purpose is. But ultimately we are investing in some of these areas like brand licencing and making sure we really get behind it. It's not start something for a year and if it's not successful then give up. You've got to really invest and drive and have the expertise to drive these areas. we've even tapped into the NFT space as well, which I think is really so sort of selling digital product. It's really in its infant stages but I think again, that'be something that's emerging and be really exciting and not something actually the sector has really dabbled in much and I think you've got to be brave, you've got to want to try new things, balance the risk. We are a charity and we need to be careful with where we spend our time, money and resources. But it really is important to innovate and think beyond, our core revenue streams that have been so established for many years.
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Paul: Very good. Could you give us an example of an NFT related project?
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Lycia: I can't disclose too much, I'd say what sed to you, but I think, when you think about assets, and some of our icon locations, they become really attractive, particularly internationally. So I think for us, there's some opportunities there and as I said, we're in development stages with somebody who is quite, established in this area. and we want to see what may happen, you know, working with them. But I think, you know, it's a similar kind of royalty based, business operation. So, you're both in it together, you both want to work, you work on the product and the offer and then you rely on the experts to go and sell that in the NFT space and then we will earn royalties on it. and that'be how it works. So, yeah, really exciting. So, yeah, watch this.
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Paul: Yeah, very much so. and clearly, and your team are very entrepreneurial. so how do you strike a balance between the commercial activities of the organisation and the conservation and education work that you mentioned earlier?
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Lycia: Well, I mean, it's a challenge and I think it's a challenge for any organisation. At the end of the day, the conservation and preservation of our collections on our spaces and our properties is the cent centre of what we do. It's why we're here. We're working ENL listed buildings, sites with special scientific interest, we're amongst wildlife. All of these, are considerations that we've got to make. We can't just stick, a sort of marquee peg in the ground and hope for the best. We've got to know what we're doing, the spaces that we're using. And I think working with our brilliant curatorial landscape colleagues on established ways of working, ways of understanding of how each other works, and using each other's expertise to do that, I think for us is the way that we continue to protect what's in our care whilst also generating income. Unfortunately, it does mean there are sacrifices with that. So it does mean sometimes we have to say no. We have said no to some really big and exciting, things. There's a, well known, jungle, series on, on and you know, they were looking at for a period of time, locations they may use and that wasn't something that we could support. you know, and there's many other things like that, that come away, when you think about things like the Apprentice and are things that have got huge, audience numbers that would sound really attractive if they were filmed or located at your property. But the reality in the practical side of things, if we're meant to be open and accessible to the public and also need to have real control over how we care for our spaces, that can be a challenge. So, yeah, really difficult on the kind of income, marketing and PR front. But actually it's about balance and it's about working collaboratively with the right experts to get that balance and come to an agreed decision.
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Paul: You sound like you have a really coherent and connected, team there. Because there is often maybe, a disconnect between the commercial side of the organisation and the heritage or conservation side of things. But sounds like you have a good model there.
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Lycia: We do. And I think we're always working to evolve the model. We're always talking to other people in the sector who have similar challenges. and also our suppliers are great, our clients are great because they've worked in other similar properties and it means that they have experience in other locations which means they can bring that insight and kind of solution focused in terms of ideas, solution focused ideas, in terms of how do we make this work? Because ultimately you don't go into something like this hoping it will not work. You go in hoping to my work. So as I said there has to be compromises. You have to collaborate. but we generally find ways, ways around things.
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Paul: You mention, you briefly mentioned tech, not the NFT but sort of wider tech. I guess. I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about how you leverage your digital presence with online platforms or indeed any other sort of tech that maybe you're using for commercial benefit.
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Lycia: Yeah, this is something quite close to my heart. As somebody who grew up using computers in a digital world, I had the best of both. I grew up and it wasn't until I was 16 and I had a phone in my hand. But when you think about the visitor type and the diversity of our visitors, you've got to look at both spaces, right? So a lot of people come to our spaces not to have tech or the digital aspect be part of their visitor journey.
They actually come to get away from that. On the other side, people are looking for innovation and a seamless visitor experience. So when you think of touchpoints and tech and digital, you're thinking, I'm going to Google to find out visiting Vista Rop hours, I'm then going to book my ticket. All of that has to be a seamless experience. It's booking your ticket. Then you might add in there a guidebook and an afternoon tea. Well, okay, now you're selecting whether you've got allergies and times and when you start to think about it and you think, well actually all of this feels very naturally in our own worlds and our personal worlds. But for the sector, tech advancements have never been at the forefront of heritage and charity businesses simply because of the investment required but also because of the legacy systems that we have or all have inherited it that we're always I would say slightly on the back foot because we're always playing catch up, supposed to kind of opp. Post to High street or other business areas. So therefore for us, although a user experience is at the heart of what we do and we have to put the users at the heart of our product and our proposition and Therefore thinking about what the users might want, whether it's ar, VR, then for us it's about how do we get the balance of investing with the right amount of money to stay ahead, and stay relevant, whilst also remembering that actually we are being measured on where we spend and invest our money. So we look at technology funding to help with that and we prioritise where we put that money. So making sure again the fysical visitor has a seamless experience. But actually our digital and online content is really engaging and robust. You know we do a lot of through social channels. We've got a really engaging TikTok, channel on social media which you know we use to educate, you know it's a great education tool but also advertise our offer on our product whether it's a holiday cottage or a Christmas jumper. so I think for us, like I said, we will never be at the forefront but I think we're always willing to try and invest where we need to, to, to really support the infrastructure that's needed to deliver an exceptional visit experience.
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Paul: And I think you know, you mentioned online booking earlier and I think pre pandemic relatively few venues required you to book online and then of course you know, you'd struggled to actually get a ticket face to face for many venues it the pandemic sort of pushed people online if you like. And I think almost everybody in the sector was hoping that emerging from the pandemic, let's get back to 2019 and I guess what's followed in many ways is more challenging. the funding isn't there in the way that it was during the pandemic and there doesn't seem to be a near end in sight to the cost of living challenges. So I wonder in terms of the continuation of challenging operating conditions, how is that influencing your thinking around the commercial side of things?
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Lycia: Yeah, I think it remains a challenge when you think of all the things you've just talked about. So everything from cost of living, to the fact that a lot of organations within the sector will be paying back loans from the pandemic, to kind of really having to think about how they're going to cover costs for increase of employers ni, maintaining talents so making sure they're paying market rates, but also thinking about wider welling kind of benefits whether it's investment in the workplace, offices, as more and more people are obviously using them as they were before but also how do we support with the infrastructure if, I guess hybrid working is the way forward, making sure people can still connect? I think, for us it's always about prioritisation and reprioritisation. You've got to be able to make sure that you are always taking that step back and, horizon scanning your offer, your operation and your priorities, to stay relevant, and be in a position where you can confidently grow and thrive. And I think if you are not doing that, then you will find that you won't be able to grow, you won't be able to stay, ahead of the market and the sector. and therefore, for us it's really quite simple. It's about looking at, making sure the costs are covered, the business, as usually is covered, making some really tough decisions. You know, do we need to operate in that area? Is that business worth the resource that we're investing in? Or should we actually really focus on just our retail and catering business? Or should we just focus on, our membership and admission business? And I think they're always the questions we're asking and re asking ourselves. but I think if an organisation's got a clear strategy, a robust delivery plan and they're always doing those cheque backs, then I think any organisation will be on track to survive and grow.
Paul: so I would imagine, and you've mentioned this a little bit during, the podcast, that lots of other organisations will want to work with you and partner with you and clearly there is a process in place in terms of is this a partner that we would want to associate with? I wondered if you could maybe, describe any partnerships or collaborations that you've had on the commercial side of things that have been particularly successful.
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Lycia: Yeah, I think, for us success comes in a number of strands. So for me, obviously I want something to be financially successful, but I'm also, acutely aware that actually, sometimes partnerships need to nourish and grow before they can become financially, successful or the sort of monetary element comes to fruition. And for us, we've had a few really successful partnerships from different angles, from different perspectives. So I think financially, one of our most successful partnerships was the 1.25 million we secured with Airbnb fairly recently. lastr couple of years. it was a donation to English Heritage to essentially support the charities s conservation and repair of our historic houses, abbeys and other ancient sites. And we're working with them, looking at premium accommodation and how they can support with that and potentially market our offer, for Us as well. So not just stff financial donation, using their expertise too and I think about the press coverage that bought, but also really thinking about the positioning of the two organisations and how may they help each other with their relative strengths. we've also had some successful marketing partnerships as well and I think they're also really important because as I said they help extend the reach to audiences and visitors that we've may not normally see it our properties. So also think here things like trust or trust partnership. During the pandemic, we partnered up with a number of food banks so that we didn't have any food waste. we've also got a series of members weekk sponsors. So at the moment, we've recently signed with Riviera who will sponsor our members week. And I think what that does for an organisation is it really helps give that kind of stamp of credibility, particularly when you're partnering with these people and these organisations. But also the value it gives whether it's through a donation or their expertise. You know, we've partnered along the way with the likes of M and S Sparks. For example, we've partnered with the fashion brand Craghoppers for our uniform. So again I think they're not just a financial contribution. They could be a financial reduction or a contribution towards an outgoing. For something like uniform.
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Paul: I'm sat here wondering when you actually sleep because it sounds like you're all over it and involved in many different things. I'm guessing you have quite a large team supporting you.
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Lycia: I do have a really good team. everyone says never as big as you need it to be, but I think it's about an effective team that are aligned to the same values and are on the same path in terms of that strategy. And I think that's really, really important. And I think the one great thing that we do, not just at English Heritage, I hear about it across the sector all the time, is really invest in your people. And that doesn't always have to be a financial, investment that can be investment in time, talent, leadership and development. but it's really important if you've got a good, strong leadership team you really can achieve anything. And I think I go back to one of the first things I said at the start around making sure we've got div voices at the table so that you've got contributions from all different walks of life are so important to growing any business and allowing any business to thrive and I think for me that really is at the heart of this. You know, our people, our biggest asset and ultimately it's giving them the space to feel that they can bring those ideas to the table and actually they can see them through to fruition. I think that's really, really exciting and really rewarding when you can see an idea from its kind of concept right down to delivery and feedback and then seeing how you can then evolve it over time.
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Paul: As you describe, the importance of everybody who works in the team, something that really strikes me as you speak is for much of my career working with venues and in venues, the commercial team was always perhaps viewed in a lesser way to other parts of the organisation. It was an add on having a cafe shop, having events, etc. Almost a second class citizen. You might describe those parts of the team, but it sounds as if English Heritage really has struck a good balance there. I'm assuming you've got really good balance within the leadership team.
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Lycia: Yes, we do and I think as I said earlier, everything's a journey. We're still infant as a charity, but ultimately we have got a very strong leadership team and I think we're always doing that step back and that horizon scanning. We're really good at kind of giving each other peer to peer feedback and looking at how we can ultimately become better in all areas of our organisation. I agree with you. When I joined the sector sort of 12, 13 years ago, commercial wasn't quite the dirty word. You, it's still a little bit, but it wasn't quite the dirty word. It was sort of 20, 30 years ago. And I think people get it now. People get the fact that if we are not generating income, if we are not marketing our offer, shouting about the great things that we do and the properties that we open in the sites and landscape that we have, then who is goingna visit them? Who is goingna keep them open and accessible for generations to come? Who is goingna bring the history to life and continue to tell those stories if we don't? And unfortunately money does buy you those opportunities and it's really important that we continue to have a fundraising and income generating mentality in whatever role we do. And I think actually some of my best ideas have not necessarily come from within the team. Some of them have come from, you know, a kind of water cooler conversation with someone in curatorial who clearly has much more or has a much wider or much deeper knowledge of the collection and will say, hey, have you seen this in the archive and then suddenly you're seeing how that can be applied to wallpapers or a selection of, don't know, Moleskin stationary and you're thinking actually that's suddenly become a best sell brand licencing range or because of a water cooler conversation with someone in curator. And I think that's why collaboration and peer to peer working is so, so important and important in terms of everybody understanding their contribution to the income and fundraising elements of what we do.
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Paul: Do you look after fundraising as well or is that different?
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Lycia: I don't. I work really closely with our fundraising teams who obviously focus on things like grants, trust, philanthropy, but also we have to work closely because there's often lots of crossover. We can introduce a partner who is actually more interested in giving a donation rather than contributing to product development or a commercial sponsorship. And therefore you've got to understand the rest of your business and know where actually your biggest return may be. and I think that's also what's really great is that we are working really closely with our other kind of income generating colleagues to really understand what they do better. A sale is different to making an ask. So being really aware and understanding of what other colleagues do is really integral to I guess the success of any business. But primarily if you're in a charity to really understand that.
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Paul: Absolutely. just one of the thought I have, as we begin to wrap up maybe is a lot of venues are offering sort of quite exclusive activities, and events, for example, behind the scenes tours of collections and these sorts of things. Does English Heritage do anything like that? Maybe that's something that's membership related. Are there any sort of quite unusual means, of generating income that you're applying?
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Lycia: Well if you fancy a glass Prosecco on a bridge in Cornwall, then we can offer that. Yes. So for sure, back to a kind of audiences and thinking about experienceing classes. it is really important that we offer something for everybody. and that's a really kind of, I think untapped market. I think a lot of people do it on the surface. but ultimately I think at our organisation we can definitely do more of it. But we have the Stone Circle at Stonehenge. So VIP access, glasses, sort of bubbly, and a sort of breakfast view of the Stones. we also, as I said, you know, you can get a glass of bubbly and visit to Tintagl. we've also done some private tours, particularly with the Success of Bridgerton at Ranger's House. So Ranger's House, in Greenwich, doesn't have many visitors. It's primarily open at weekends. and we have set up now some filming tools which allows people to kind of get immersed, you know, the Bridgerton fans, to get really immersed in, the home of the Bridgerton. So, we've kind of developed that offer, which is something fairly new, something we wanted to do. But, Pandemic came and we put a holt to it and we sort of didn't take it forward. But we now have, And there's various other sor of VIP events that we do. whether it's as part of a partnership with our corporate partners, Members Week, as we alluded to early, where there's exclusive events just for our members, but also, we do tailored packages through our venue hire. So if there are groups of people that want a specialist curator tour, then we can organise that as well. And I think it's really important that. Actually, yes, it's important to be completely open and accessible and not charge for everything. But I also think there are still people out there that want the kind of money can't buy experience, and they're great supporters of what we do. So, again, extension ambassadors of what we do. So, it's really exciting when we get to evolve something like that with those supporters.
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Paul: Very much so. Well, this conversation has been fascinating. Thank you so much for joining us. before we close, I just wondered, is there anything I should have asked that I haven't or anything else that you'd like to.
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Lycia: No, it's been great. And thank you, for inviting me along to, talk to you today. And I think, for me, I think the kind of one nugget or piece of kind of advice that I would give anyone is this is a fantastic sector to be part of. You. If you're at that point where you're thinking about a career change or wanting to get into the arts, heritage or charity sector, it's incredibly rewarding whatever you do. obviously income generation, commercial business areas, aren't for everybody, but there are so many different roles, that you can get involved in within the sector. And I said everything from volunteering to HR to finance to curatorial landscapes. It's so broad, and actually it's a really collaborative sector, so we spend a lot of time attending conferences with the likes of ALVA or ace, but we also share best practises and come together and share the challenges in the sector and I think it's unlike any other in that way. So, yeah, I think from my perspective, I've got a lot out of it and I know the teams that I've led, along the years have as well. And, yeah, we'd highly recommend you working for, a charity or heritage organisation.
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Paul: I completely agree. And thank you for being such a great champ, champion of the sector. really great to have you join us today. So thank you again, Lycia, and, hope to see you soon.
Lycia: Thank you.