The Museum Doctor podcast with Callum Lumsden

Paul: Hi, Callum. Good to see you.

​

Callum: Hi, Paul. How are you doing?

​

Paul: I'm good. How are you?

​

Callum: I'm fine. How's, sunny, Dundee, autumnal.

​

Paul: right now, it's getting colder for sure. And lots of leaves on the ground. How about that?

​

Callum: You feel it up there more than you do down here. I'm in Cheltenham, so, it's overcast and. But it's okay. and. But it's Autome, which is one of my favourites. Well, it is my favourite season.

​

Paul: Yeah. And you're. You're in a lovely part of the world as well.

​

Callum: Yes, it's lovely. Yeah.

​

Paul: I think you and I met. I was thinking about this, Callum. I think we met, probably just over 10 years ago and I remember we, at that point we were exploring a possible project with Kew Gardens, which unfortunately, I think that would have been amazing. But, sadly, it didn't come off. But I wondered if, to begin with, you could maybe share with us, a little bit about your career and, maybe a little bit about Lumsden Design, if you're happy to do that.

​

Callum: Yeah, sure. I mean, Well, it's been, quite a long journey. it goes back further than 10 years, I can tell you. I'd always, worked in the, retail design sector. and I'd started up my own company. We did, lots of interesting work, including Habitat, for instance, various other, retailers, Jigsaw, that kind of thing. and then I got to a stage where, I was asked to pick pitch for Tate Modern, when it was, gonna first open. And so that would be when I was approach would have been 1997, I guess. then it, And that was to do all the retail for Tate Modern. Now Tate Modern is iconic now. and what. What was, incredible to me was I. I'always liked the idea of, getting involved in a museum shop. but this one was, like something completely different. The ambition M was way higher. so I was asked to pitch for it. I won the competition. and that introduced me to a sector that I hadn't really understood how important that was. And I still continue to try and explain to people how important retail and the commercial aspect of museums and galleries and visitor attractions is so vitally important. so, there was three shops in, Tate Modern. It was the main one which, as those who've been there, as you go down the ramp, there was one on the second floor which was off the pavement. one. And then there was a combined cafe and bookshop on the top floor which was mainly for exhibitions. that was an amazing project. It opened in 2000, the millennium. and then I started getting inquiries from all over the place and ranging from Vienna, the Abatina through to the V and A. Da da da da. So we card Lums and design carried on. and we just started building up this portfolio in this sector which I absolutely loved. So a stage. I can't remember when it was. It was probably about 2010. We collectively decided to concentrate on this sector because we had a great portfolio behind us. It was a who's who of the London Museums, for instance, British Museum being in a science museum, natural history museum. and I'm not bragging, I'm just telling you what happened.

​

Paul: Yeah, no, absolutely.

​

Callum: so we just went on with it and Is developed into something which I'm very proud of. I'm very proud of the guys because it's not just me as there's a team. the team at Lumson Design are amazing. They change a bit, but actually not that much. and we continue to go on. so that's what I specialise in. And that's developed more and more into the F and B side as well. and it's also taken us into. Well it's taken us to Hollywood for instance with Harry Potter, literally. That's another.

​

Paul: We'll come on to that.

​

Callum: Touch on. Touch on later. Yeah.

​

Paul: well, if that's not one of them, I wondered if you could maybe describe, you know, one or two of the. The more memorable or most memorable commissions that you've had and why they stand out in the memory.

​

Callum: okay. well, I mean I've already mentioned Tate Modern. I mean that was just such an amazing experience because it really did test the clients as much as it tested me in terms of how to get something that wasn't the cookie, cutter type of museum, shop that was around at the time. I mean, the brief from Nicholas SATA was I want to have the best modern art bookshop in the world. people still harp back to Takeape Modern. When I talked to them about it about, oh, you could get any modern art book you wanted there, it was fantastic. So I mean, and that wasn't to do with the design. that was to do with the vision that Nicholas Sroa had in terms of what he wanted and the connection there was. It was very much talked about while we were developing the designs about what MoMA Museum of Modern Art in New York were doing. and I'd always been a massive fan of moma. It was one of the first places I visited when I went to New York when I was a student at the Royal College of Art. And I always loved it. So that then takes me ono the second one because no, I'm trying to remember how long ago it was. I guess the mid 2010s, I was called, phoned up by a lovely lady called Rucapiro who is the retail director or she's retired now. to say a. You Callum Lumsden? I'm Ruce Shiro. we'd like you to talk to you about possibly designing our store in New York. and that was like is this one of my mates cheque the date? Yes, exactly. and it turned out and we won it. and that was fantastic Project moma. for those who know about the things that you and me know about in the commercial side of the visitor attraction sector, MUA is absolutely up there at the top. And you, you know, I think it currently stands at a 63 million dollar turnover just in retail, which is astonishing. There's others that claim higher but having worked with them, I know that they're right. So I mean that led to Cosmoma. we're having a massive remodel of the whole of the museum with an architectural company called Dyisad Renfreu. And the retail part was very sensitive because the press in New York had accused moma of looking like a shopping mall. And so how do you make retail work which is such a vital part of the financial requirements of MoMA? but also the reason to go to MoMA is the fantastic collection of art that they've got. But it's such a major tourist attraction as well. they had to cope with that. So it was the main shop in the museum. The main store, in the museum. it there's another one on the second floor which from memories, 2,000, 2,000 square feet minimum. then there's the exhibitionock shop up on the fifth floor. It was a design store which is the store right opposite the museum where New Yorkers go to buy their dinner sets. And you know it's like absolutely iconic and that Then developed into eight stores in Japan, and there'now opening up stores all around the world. Hamburg, Pog Kong, et cetera, et cetera. so that was a fantastic one in terms of pushing the envelope. I would say the M store, M opened in Hong KONG in 2000, eventually in 2020, just during the pandemic. But in terms of pushing the design envelope and really aligning it with the merchandise. because we really worked hand in hand with the retail strategists, that. That we worked with alongside in terms of how that actually worked, in terms of how that evolved. The look and feel of that to me is right up there in terms of really being something quite different, which is in my view the job of a designer. Come up with something that nobody expects.

​

Paul: And it actually sounds as if your sort of foundation in the high street, you know, has been a real core asset as you've then developed this knowledge of the visitor attraction sector over the last couple of decades.

​

Callum: Yes, it did. I mean, you know, I started off working with various fashion retailers who are very demanding. and I have to be honest with you, they weren't my favourite type of client. Although some of them were. but I mean. JIGSAW WHISTLES you know, the whole fashion brand thing is such a difficult one as you can tell because the fashion brand seemed to last for a certain amount of time and then bang. I mean, you know, Ted Baker's just disappeared, all of that kind of thing. And then there's the luxury markets. But I've always been more interested in the high street, which to me is for the real people in the world. I mean I worked for Rodney Fitch who invented retail design, and he always said I'd rather be working for Books the Chemist than you know, a luxury brand. Because it's actually touchedes real people's heart and just kind of understanding. I mean if you think about the the target markets that museums and visitor attractions are after, you know, it's everybody, it's you know, it. School kids through to seniors, and in all those in between, it's multiple. it's not aimed at one particular segment, which is, you know, what fashion has to be about. So I mean, you know, understand that.

​

Paul: Yeah, it's, it's a very varied audience that most venues are trying to appeal to. I wondered in recent years whether changing economic factors, impacting the visitor climate. you know, certainly over the last four years or so whether as a result of that you've seen a shift in the motivation for organisations commissioning you or is it the same as it ever was?

​

Callum: No, I'd say there's more recognition of the value of the commercial aspect of cultural institutions now than there ever was. know obviously we're very lucky in this country that the majority of museums there are no entrance fees. I do think that's going to start to change because you know everything, every single thing that affects any commercial business is affecting the museum world big time. you know the change in national insurance that's just come out, you know, that's going to have a massive effect. also in terms of the government's relationship in terms of the ministers who look after that side of thing in the uk. I have hope at the moment about the new government but It's just been impossible to get any real commitment for the museum. So therefore the commercial aspect, the retail part and the f andmb and education and events and the way ticketing is happening and all of that kind of thing is a vital part to. For the curators who want to buy the objects that they want to put in their museum or the art. It's s Absolutely vital. It's completely different ballame to what happens in say America which lives and breathes on the basis of donations from extremely wealthy corporations and individuals. That happens to an extent in the UK but also it's also different in Europe. that's a whole thing. I mean you are charged to come into a museum there. That's a different thing. But even I found. I mean we are working, we've done a lot of work in Europe. I'm finding that the same attitude about the commercial aspect of for cultural institutions is probably about three or four years behind where it is in the uk. So it's catching up that they're actually starting to really kind of look at you know, how do we really make this work sit in a serious way rather than it because'being something that you walk past when you're coming away from going to an exhibition. and that's very. It's a very kind of different thing. There's a whole kind of load of.

​

Paul: Different balances going on and I suppose with potential funding challengesm coming down the pipeline, you know an optimised commercial operation makes you more of A master of your own destiny.

​

Callum: Yes, yes. and you know, who's actually working in the shop? Who's actually looking after the retail part? what are the team, the buyers and the people on the shop floor, Are they actually talking to each other? which is a kind of classic thing which happens in commercial retail as well. It drives me mad. Are the curators involved in it? Do they take an interest? all of those kind of aspects. where are the sourcing their merchandise from? is it close? Is it local? Which there's a whole environmental aspect that everybody's should be having a top of mind. and obviously visitor satisfaction. Are they seeing that as. And I've always said it's got to always be a seamless part of the experience of coming to museum. There should be no feeling of oh there's the shop or you know, I mean I know some museums have done research and they found out that the parents in of certain demographics do not want the shop to be the first thing as they walk into a museum because the kids want to go in there. All of that kind of thing because there's the other aspect. People have got less money to spend. and that's not just in the uk, that's definitely Europe wise. If I'm hearing all the right things from America at the moment, that's the same thing in America. So making it a valued part of the experience I think is a major, major consideration for whatever happens for the U. Retail design

.

Paul: Can I ask, You know, just struck me there as you were talking about I guess how the commercial operations resonate with the wider operation of a museum. You know, my assumption is you don't arrive at any new museum as an expert in that museum. So how. What's the sort of process you apply to sort of get under the skin if you like and to really understand each new museum that you work at?

​

Callum: Well usually there's sort of kind of specific questions. I mean understanding what they're. We always like to run deep into what the museum is about because you know a transport museum has an entirely different demographic to an art museum. If you think about the people that go to a transport museum, it will be people who want to see the old trams, all the kind of networks, et cetera. the art people, the ones who go to an art museum will want to see like what's the latest fantastic art show that's going on. So understanding who the people are that the operation needs to, entice and excite and interest and buy is the starting point. So really understanding the, what they, the objects are, the art, that's usually our starting point. Understanding where the kind of basic, part of it is, where is the space that's been designated because it's not always that we have a say at that. And if it's a brand new museum that is in such as M plus and Hong Kong, we had a fair say about where that should be. because there's two stores there. but understanding, making sure. How is that going to work, you know, where's the stockroom, where's the place for the manager. Managers, to sit quietly and talk to her staff occasionally? you know, how far is it from the store, to the stockroom? If a customer asked for something, they've got to come back. my famous story. Well, lot also people have heard me say it before, but I'll do it for you, Paul, is we worked out that it was going to take 35 minutes and 16 seconds to take modern, to get from the store to where the architects had put the stockroom. And that was to get there and then they had to come back again. so we fought and fought and fought and we got, we worked out that we could put the stockroom underneath the ramp that everybody walks. So, it's no longer there now because they've expanded it. It's understanding that, is what kind of lighting is going to happen, because lighting is really important. what's the linear footage? All of the. All of those kind of things. real mix and making the mix.

​

Paul: So one thing I was wondering, Callum, you know, do you see standard challenges, in clients, in terms of their commercial operations? Is there something that, you know, is fairly consistent, or does each bring its own series of challenges and opportunities?

​

Callum: there are a few things that are, consistent. Usually, the success is how much, support they're getting, from top management, that, you know, s. the directors and the people who are actually, you know, if it's a full remodel of a whole museum or indeed it's a new museum. it's, you know, they. I usually find that they understand the importance of retail, but, it's not top of their list. So in terms of the retail part being brought in at the beginning, because it always, involves the vision of the architect. I'm not an architect. I, never wanted to be an architect. and whether that architect, understands the importance, because they have the ear of the main man. it can skew it.