Consultants to the Visitor Attraction Sector
The Museum Doctor podcast with David Hamilton
Join us in this episode as we chat with David Hamilton, an innovative entrepreneur who made the surprising leap from the world of video games to owning the Scottish Deer Centre.
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Discover how he brought his gaming expertise to revolutionise visitor attractions with a 'pay as you please' model, making the centre accessible to all.
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David shares his journey, from purchasing the centre to integrating a freemium model, and his ventures into e-sports, gluten-free brewing, and even a 21st-century ice cream van.
Tune in for a fascinating discussion on entrepreneurship, innovation, and the intersection of technology and wildlife.
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Get in touch with the Museum Doctor on Paul@xcentuategroup.com​
Transcript
Paul: Hi David, Good to see you. How are you?
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David: Hi Paul. Yeah, very good, thank you.
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Paul: Yeah, thanks for joining us, really. good to see you. we've interviewed a few people now for this series. a lot of them, in fact, all of them have a career pretty much spent in the world of visitor attractions. but you don't up until fairly recently. but you do have a fascinating background. So I wondered if you could maybe open the podcast with, just telling everybody sort of how you got to this point. what were we were doing previously. and a couple of years ago now you purchased the Scottish Deer Centre. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about how that came about.
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David: Yep, absolutely. So I, about 20 years ago today actually, I, started a, computer games company straight from university and that was my. Has been. My career has been video games, primarily on the smartphones and then reaching out to, expanning out to consoles and PC and yes, as you mentioned, three years ago I, just about three and a half years ago I purchased a Scottish Deer Centre on Wildlife Park. So completely different ends of the spectrum in career. But I can, as we can get into, I can, I can connect the two in some ways.
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Paul: What was the process? you know, I know the story in terms of sort of how the opportunity popped up, but could you share a little bit about that and why when you saw the opportunity you gravitated towards it?
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David: Yeah. So we were fortunate enough to sell our video games business and we were kind of on the exit path after the initial sale and locally to me is this Scottish Deer Cent Centre and Wildlife Park. And obviously during COVID unfortunately they fell into administration mainly because it was part of a bigger wider group retail group called the Edinburgh Wmill Group. And obviously the high streets with COVID were basically gone. And yes, whether the Deer Centre would have been able to with the grants sustained during lockdown, maybe they could have. But because it was part of the wider group, unfortunately it fell into administration. So it's local to me. It's right outside Cooper and Fif, Scotland and my dad grew up in Cooper and, and I've got many fond memories, especially during this time a year going to go see Santa at the Scottish Deerer. So I then contacted a fellow businessman who I've known for a lot of years and I knew he was kind of the same as me. It takes ac quite a taste to buy a zoo. Just ask Matt Damon. And yeah we we saved the day at Scottish Steerer and bought it for the administrators.
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Paul: Wow. There aren't many of us that get an opportunity to buy a venue that we visited as a child. So how cool is that? So how different is it running a visitor attraction to running a gaming company?
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David: It's not, it's not too, too much different. I mean I know it sounds completely different but in business I've got a few more now as well. It's the same thing. It's dealing with staff and making sure the staff are looked after and it's making sure that you re which we haven't fully done yet but making sure that you're profitable. And it's all about p L'and yeah making especially in games because I could games is having fun and bringing enjoyment in people's lives and having a zoo. The Deer Centre it is the same to me. And a lot of people say to me you're just getting to live your life now like your child in you is getting to come out real life. And it's totally true. It's not just coming out in the games now. It's coming out in actual, in day to day dearer life.
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Paul: So, So I know you are an incredibly busy entrepreneur and would take maybe just a very slight detour here but could you explain maybe some of the other business interests that you have at the moment beyond the Deer Centre?
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David: Yeah, sure. So I'm still, I'm still involved in a computer game so I'm still a few days a month there. I'm still involved with the guys and so I've not, I've not fully left the computer game scene and I've got a few other ideas I want to do there. I'm now into esports. So esports is getting bigger and bigger and I've kind of take the reins, hopefully take the reins in Scotland to, to start big movements in the esports space. I have celiac disease due to my diabetes. This is not a violin moment but I when I go to all these dinners I could never get a gluten free beer. I always I couldn't drink cider so yeah I was unfortunately I was on always having to start on the wine and end on the wine and that'I drink it like beer. So I started a gluten free brewery just outside St. Andrews. So again I could Bring my video games background into that. So the kind of imagery on the brand Cold brew, col brew. And yeah, that's kind of computer game themed as well. So there's a few things I'm doing there in the background with beer, coins and things which there's a big play on bitcoin and cryptocurrency. So I've got that going. And I'RECENTLY just started the 21st century ice cream van where you could pre order on an app and you could collect it and you could track it on the app and then go and collect it with a collection code. So yeah, I'm bringing my computer gameing background. I'm in the fortunate position to be able to kick off new ventures. And I know that ice cream van one will be the big one because my wife said to me it's the worst idea I've ever had.
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Paul: So it's likely to be the best idea is that.
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David: That's exactly how it works.
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Paul: All right. Okay.
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David: So yeah. She said to me, Dave, I love you, but it's the worst idea you've ever had. But I've got a van triling in Gauldry, Newport, Wormit and Tayort area just now, a guy running the first franchise. And yeah, the data is good so far, so I'm ploughing ahead to then franchise that out right now actually.
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Paul: So, so busy. I'm just reflecting as you were speaking there and I think there's a word that I'm going to use and I'm pretty sure that I think you and I sat down several years ago and you use this word. It was the first time I'd ever heard it. The word is freemium. which I think at the point where you used it, maybe your gaming company was kind of going through some changes and you were looking at how to monetize differently. and I think perhaps that's one of the things that you've brought to the de Centre in terms of thinking about how do you make a visitor attraction work commercially. Is there anything else you can say about the gaming sector in terms of how you encourage people to part with their money? that might become relevant later in the conversation.
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David: Yep. No, absolutely. So it's, it's basically, if you want me to. What do you want me to tell you? What exactly did with the freemium model from computer games now into. Yeah, so yeah, year one, it hit us with, with the zoo, when we purchased the deerer was, I'll say it down for everyd's listening that's thinking about acquiring A zoo. Make sure that your legal team do a health cheque on said zoo licence. Right now, my legal team just to a. Yep, it's got a zoo licence. Tick the box, move on to the next due diligence. And year one we got hit with the zooectors coming out and we had to build an enclosure for every animal. and then the war happened and the cost of equipment and went up. So basically that hit us year one, year two, we'just crying out, trying to get through the winter, trying to get us the summer and then there was no real left and unfortunately that was the cost of living crisis. And that's when I introduced something from the computer games industry into the zoo industry. And we've hear quite a few people now been inspired by what we do and I'm actually really proud to do it. So this is basically pay as you please. So if you asked me in 2005 when I started, well 2004, but 2005 and a we started trading our game, would I be giving our games away for free in 10 years time, which was when we first did a free game. I would be telling you to get on your bike because why would you build a computer game with all that money and then just hand it out for free? And that's where we were involved at the time in the shift of that. But now a lot of the games are free and we do freemium. So it's basically free to download and it's all about arpd, which is average revenue per daily active user. And that's what we do at the data centre, basically pays you please. So, a lot of people just come in for free, make a small donation. Some of them actually give us more than we should have because I keep the full price board there. They just love what we do. So it's all about, yeah, average spend. And in games it's called iep, so it's in app purchases. So when I speak to my staff and we come up with new ideas, it's. I referred to them as ipp. So in park purchases, don't get me wrong, you'll still get a lot of families that come in and it's. I'm happy for them to be in and they'll bring their, they'll bring their, their own lunches. They actually won't spend and that's completely fine because they'll go away and potentially tell all their friends and even their families to come and visit and then it might be their friends or family that, that make an ipp, so to speak. But it's, it's a much happier place to be, especially for the staff if we're busy and it's jumping and there's a good vibe about it. But yeah, fundamentally it's, it's. I'm trying to encourage people to come for half a day now, not just a full day, because they have to feel like they have to get the justification for a ticket price. So it literally is pay as you please. And it's a much fairer model in my opinion. Like, it's different for a capacity like a, like a concert. But when you've got 55 acres of land with all these beautiful animals, why should we stop you from Entering if you're, if you don't, if you're not rich enough to come in, you know, and I just think that's, that's, that's old school way of entering a visit attraction. Just pay what you can afford and be fair and come in and enjoy the day. So it's, it's hard to measure if it's been a huge. How successful it is. But I definitely now know that we're coming at the, the back end of it with hopefully coming into profit that it is, it is paying off.
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Paul: So I think I'm right in saying that with, with the gaming model, the version of the model that, if you, if you have to pay for the game versus a free game, I believe users tend to spend less because they've sort of had the outlay at the front end and they kind of feel that that's it. Whereas if you give the game for free, they're more inclined to, to make those purchases, you know, whether it's, you know, ammunition or, you know, whatever it happens to be that you have to purchase to continue to the next level. Is that right?
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David: Yeah, definitely. I mean it's everybody. Well, families will have a certain amount m of spend that they can spend at the weekend as a treat for the kids or whatever it is. Even if they don't have anything to spend, just come along and enjoy yourself. Come and have a day out on the deer centre. and like I say, they'll go away, they'll tell all their friends and families about it and hopefully leave us a good review. But people, if they come in, it's a different mentality. Rather than spending, I don't know, 20 pound on entry for them and their family, they know they've saved that £20 so they're going away with something, they might spend it in the gift shop instead. And to me that's a much happier experience than having to pay the 20 pound upron. And sometimes you might get families that come along because it is free to get in, pay as you please and they come in for free but they know they've saved 20 pound. And everybody loves a saving. Even myself still loves a saving. So I know I've saved £20. So when I go in the gift shop and my lovely being sarcastic, my lovely little five year old Lucas, who's never a menace or never moans or never cries, never goes in the half, then start squealing for a toy daddy could have, get a doy dady, get a toy, turn into the wife and say, look, we've saved 20 pound. If we buy him for a fiver here, this toy, then we're basically getting it for free and we've saved 15 pound and that's what we see happens. And if you flip it and look at, from a business perspective, I'm there, I'm there with the family because it was free to get in. But in that, in that time that I'm there, I've actually spent five pound for the deer centre as a business because if I wasn't there I wouldn't spend that five pounds. So that's the kind of way the model works.
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Paul: Yeah, that makes, that makes a tonne of sense. So this has been discussed in some of the, the other podcasts but in the good old days as it were, if you were operating a visitor attraction, the real emphasis was on volume, getting as many people through the door as possible. And I think one of the things that has seen a shift in many, I think you're one of the exceptions to that. We'll come on to that. But there's been more of an emphasis on value so we've got fewer people coming through and how do we turn that into a revenue generating opportunity for us? But I'm assuming based on what you've said that the free model or pay, pay as you like model, I'm assuming has seen your visitor numbers increase significantly. But would that be fair?
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David: Yeah, no, definitely. It's, it's, it's the issue now that we have is car park. And we are now having to actively look and I think I've got a solution for it is basically to extend the car parks because on a busy day we get, we get car park wars with people blocking people in and the rest of it. Basically what happens when, when people can't get car, parked but that's a good problem to have. And yeah I mean we do different things. When it gets quieter is like encourage work out how many steps you get in when you do a circuit of the park. And then I was there one time and a couple from warmt that state where I stay said to me dave this is great. We come here to get our steps in. And as the d me this is exactly I says but look, you're drinking a cup of coffee and there's, there's a pound or whatever we make per coffee and there's two pounds that we've made that we wouldn't have made if they weren't there. So it's trying to encourage people different mindset because like I said earlier, earlier on is if, if you were to spend 30 pound or had to spend 30 pound regardless of what day, time of day that you get there, you want to try and make a full day of it. So now we see a lot of big we see a footfall another wave of people coming in the afternoon which we wouldn't have seen prior to. Prior to pay as you please.
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Paul: so I, I was at an event recently and what one of the models that were shared. I don't think this would perhaps work so well for you but one of the models was shared. and this is a big thing that blew up during, during the pandemic is advanced ticket purchases. and as you were saying, you know it kind of what was shared at this meeting was that that removes a barrier because if you go to a visitor attraction and as you say you maybe spend £100 for the family in terms of getting in your pocket'a bit sore for a while so you're reluctant to spend immediately. You may again by the time you finish the visit but the advanced ticket purchase sort of takes that away because you know you may have bought that ticket a week before, two weeks before, three weeks before. So you've almost sort of forgotten. So you feel like you're turning up and you're getting him for free sort of thing. I don't think that would work so well for you because you know it may allow you to manage demand but I assume that a lot of your traffic is weather dependent. Would that be fair or you know the people come in all weather.
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David: Yeah, I mean with page you please is it is more popular when the weather is not is. Is sorry about being. It's a lot more people come with the weather is bad now than it did prior to it. Where would be absolutely no visitors because they feel like they're not getting their. Their full money's worth when the weather'like that. The advanced tickets system, we removed that because you'd get people who then show up with advanced tickets and not realise that we do pay you please, and then ask if they could get a refund and things like that. So we've just completely removed that and just allow them. Just keep it simple. And it's amazing how many people still don't know when they get. Until they get there. That is pay as you please. But yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's, it's more. It's busier now when it's. The weather's not as good. But I am putting things in place to hopefully get revenue up when weather is bad.
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Paul: So most venues, I think it's fair to say, you know, once people have paid or obviously for lots of venues, you don't pay to get in certain museum types, you know, then there's generally an opportunity with the shop or shops, the cafe, restaurant, if you're lucky to have, you know, that kind of setup. And maybe you even have an events income stream, which is obviously a different type of audience. Can you explain the sort of revenue streams that you have? Is it limited to that or is. Does it go beyond that?
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David: Yeah, no. I mean every day we've got that, we've got the cafe. So it's the courtyard cafe. And I'm going to probably look to actually rebrand that eventually. And decorate up and theme it a bit better to. To basically be somewhere that you don't have to because it's in the courtyard. You don't need to enter the zoo to come and have a Christmas meal for a local Cooper business for a Christmas lunch. And it's trying to grab any audience we can for that aspect. We put a food that. We've got the Crep Shack, which has got quite a lot of followers and we introduced the KPBS Shach plus the in the car park. So passing trade, they can actually just come in decent space and grab some food and then exit again. So there is that. And then obviously we've got the revenue scheme that pays you please. We put soft play in. So again you don't need to go into the zoo, just pays your please soft play. And inside the park on busy days we'll have a lot of food, different trucks and offerings. So we've got the bomb disposal unit, which Sells different types of foods. it used to be based in Edinburgh during COVID and we managed, we were lucky enough to get it and bring it in house. We've got lots of different wee things that the remote control boats, the tractors that we got from when we did the muddy boot Ste deal. We've got my ice cream van, one of my ice cream vans is in there. So again it's just, it's just triggering where people can spend. We ve obviously do have the crep shack in terms of events. We, we do put on quite a bit of events. So right now I'm ordering spray paint for my Christmas grotto because that starts a week tomorrow. And we actually did something that I never thought we'd do this year is we crashed the site. We got referred to as Oasis. We were the Oasis tickets of Santa's grotto this year because so many people TR to access it and we didn't have a que system. So it's levelling up. Going back theuter game system every year with what we put into our grotto. But that again is a, a 16 pound IPP so to speak.
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Paul: They obvious pounds per. Per child.
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David: Yeah and it's. And it's basically what they get. They get a lot of for that. I mean you're talking probably just shy of ten pounds on a like on a gift of think it's about 78 pound for the gift and then they get a lot from the experience when they're there as well. So it's with the, with the what we put into the actual event and then I'll do smaller events throughout the year. So I'll do an Easter grotto and again you could pay to come and see the Easter bunny, get a gift to go around for an Easter egg hunt and things. Recently just there did the boutique pumpkin patch. So doesn't cost to get in, it's just part of the payge you please entry system.
And then you could actually buy the pigs of pumpkins and again spend buying a pumpkin and we'll make hopefully a small bit on. On the profit. Not a lot but it brings people into the park. And I'll do Witchcraft and Wizardry week again. It's all part of the entry fee but there'll be we IPP in there if they want to to buy the, the ice cream type thing. So yeah, it's just all about bringing people in, putting a new event on, giving them a reason to come along again. And yeah, just, just reiterating that they could come every week if they want to every weekend if they wanted to. And sometimes you need to put an event on for them to, to remember us and to come back.
​​Paul: So, so, so I should say to anybody listening to this, because I think we're planning on putting these podcasts out in January and February, that you are very organised, but maybe not that organised, but, you know, great things to think about for next Christmas, definitely. Because that just seems to have taken off in the world of visitor attractions, because, you know, you have unique venues, so why not turn it to your advantage?
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David: Yeah, there's just all. I mean, when I. My yearly visit before I was lucky enough toquire the zoo was basically Christmas time, was going and feeding the deer where it's snow or frost on the ground and yeah, obviously the reindeers. Santa's. Santa's reindeers. We've got reindeers there, there, you know, so it's, it just goes to. In hand to go to the deer centre, for a, for a Sant. Santa's Grotto. I mean, last year we actually introduced the, the Reindeer Inch, which is a parody, obviously of the Grinch. So I was. It's. It's quite disheartening. Like people are trying to give you money and really wanting to, to come along for the experience that, we've built it up to be. And they can't because there's only one Santa. So you can't have kids coming and having another Santa. so it's, it's basically this was an introduction that you get the whole same experience and what we do with the train and that. Spoiler alert. With the experience that you get inside. But at the end you can either go go see Santa or you go see go see the reindeer ends. And I have lots of fun writing the script for the Reindeer Inc Each year, because again, it just brings my gaming background kind of into play. And my lovely son Lucas looks forward to the Reindeer Inch more than he does Santa. and my daughter, she looks more forward to Santa than the Reindeer Inch So.
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Paul: And I have to say, as someone who's seen this setup, not this year but in previous years, I've never seen anything like it. So, you know, if anybody's listening to this and they live near Fife, you should definitely go because it is completely on a different level. I want to say bonkers. It's maybe not quite that, you know, it's, it's. Yeah, it's pretty full on.
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David: Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. I mean, I say bonkers. One of the ideas came From a movie with Seth Rogan and a Christmas movie. And they actually take some. They actually take some drugs and they transition to this Christmas ball. And yeah, it's the same, same, similar way to get to. Into our grotto, but without the drugs.
Paul: Right, good. Don't do this at, home. just thinking about the, pay what you like model and you just thinking about where you are. you know, I don't really know what your audience profile is, whether it. It's probably quite varied in terms of where you're pulling visitors from. But I. You kind of alluded to this earlier. You know, most venues have a membership. That's what encourages people to come back. But, in terms of pay what you like, I guess that has a similar effect in terms of. Presumably locals are using the attraction on a regular basis, or at least more regular than they were before.
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David: Yeah, no, I mean, we still do our annual passes and we still give out because we. Obviously it goes across any business of Harv. It's every week we get contracted through for donations or sponsorship and for raffle prizes, especially this time of year foris for school, Christmas, things that goes on. So we still do annual passes because it still gives away that feel of feeling the need to pay anything. so we do our annual passes. But yes, I've got a guy that works for me computer games business, Ninja Kiwi, who, he calls it graduation because when he's got a young kid, I do do these areas on purpose where there's. We've got the jumping pillow or we've got the play equipment and it's completely confined, so they can't, they can't escape without going past them sitting at their seat. There's only one entry and one exit and he calls it graduation. Thinks it's absolutely brilliant because I would't shame, him, but he can bring his young kids there, they can go and have the time of their lives and the bouncy pillow. And he just gets a bit of me time sitting looking at the football updates or whatever as he's sitting there on his phone, letting his kids play to their heart content. And being. Being a dad, you then get a lot of good brownie points with. With the other half. When you do that, they just don't know what you've actually been up to when they've had their great day out.
Paul: So, yeah, that, that. That is the world of soft play. I think, many mums and dads across the country will recognise that. That model. I'm sure. in terms of u, just thinking about performance management, you know how, how often do you talk about performance with the team?
David: So yeah, I mean now that I feel like we're getting out at the other side in terms of hopefully we're moving into profit. It's been as I say, they always say three years and it just so happens this is coming into the three years. So that potentially is true for businesses for the turnaround. yeah. And with hopefully they open up. I've not touched on that subject. I kind of did earlier on. But we're way to open an outdoor nursery which hopefully makes it profitable regardless of the weather obviously climate change and this sort of stuff. I mean it breaks my heart when the second week of Easter school holidays is yellow weather warnings all week. and sometimes they don't even come to fruition. Sometimes the media just likes to, to name storms and hurt your business without le knowing that you're hurting your business. But I actually prefer it when it rains in the afternoon, not in the morning because then it just changed. But yeah, with the outdoor nursery I'm starting to feel now hopefully when that gets opened you we will, we will still be sustainable regardless of whether. But on that note, as I said I went off and with there but I've just introduced incentive for staff bonus basically to the staff so they've now got something to kind of go for and hopefully help with performance and bring us to another level because sometimes I do feel the staff are key. So I've always said this the day one to them like stick with me. And not all have because people don't like change and I get that and that's, there's no hard feelings for that but yeah, given them a piece of the piece of the pie, you know if we are coming to profit now I've always said without staff we don't have a business so why not share part of that profit with the staff? So we did it in the computer games world again and it's basically just five simple questions like timekeeping, you know, your quality of work and did you go above and beyond and like we want, we want happy staff. So it gets them thinking to do that. I'm hoping like no disrespect them, I think we've been operating maybe 80% and we could potentially do an extra 20% just by maybe notut shutting a certain food outlet for the quickest reason they could get to shut the food outlet maybe still finding a solution for them to go and really want the business to succeed and not just go and they'll get more out of that and that's where I'm trying to get. Not all staff will go that way but I'm trying to get the staff to really think about the business not just them showing up for work and just doing their nineint whatever is just their job and leaving. I will really want them to feel that they're part of the success the more that they do and sometimes it will come with a. With the bonus incentive so.
Paul: Very good. just a couple of questions. you mentioned earlier in the podcast something to do with Was it U something to do with bombs? Bomb Is it bomb M disposal Bomb disposal unit?
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David: yes.
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Paul: Is that I'm assuming because I don't other listeners won't know what that is. Is that a food, a food outlet?
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David: Yeah so it's a food out so so I mean again some won't know this but I I actually bought on u gum tree U you can Google it if you don't believe me. a Buccaneer bomber. So this was X RAF and I there is a link between the Raptor world which is our Bird of prey section and how these buccaneers were were designed were based on one on basically flying birds. So what I love about is they kind of diversifying out to different industries and this we've actually teamed up with the RAF Belvulent Fund and they've now have their hub worth us so if you if they're struggling they have a Belvolent Fund can come along and come and have a coffee at the Deerer they have a pop up stand they have their brochures out there and once a year we doing an Armed Forces day which I'm very proud to host and yeah they come along and they get to share their stories and we've got the cadets and the pipe bands and they come out and it's all to do because we brought the, the Buccaneer from Lossy Mouth. It was in a petrol station randomly and now it's just randomly come down to the Scottish Deer Centre. but it's honestly my what some of my proud times is when I see an old guy get his photo standing and his family's taking the photo him standing there in front of the Buccaneer because he's obviously either worked on them or or was has been involved somehow with it. So it's yeah it's just bringing different things to a zoo which. Which some folk won't do or even won't even think that there's somehow bring other people out. It's hard to measure how many people come along just to see the buccaneer.
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Paul: But yeah, I think. I think it's probably safe to say that there aren't many zoos around the world that have a fighter jet as part of the. Part of the display.
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David: Yeah, I'd also agree. And recently it was another fortunate event was our bro miniature railway shut down and I I love the quote that John Ker did. That was the care family that did because I wasn't the only one that was contacting him and when he shut down and his quote at the Courier was David just was persistently kept on. Yes I think persistency is the right word. He said yeah just kept on bugging me until I gave in and I'm actually really proud. So yes I've just recently opened up a miniature railway u from the care family in our bro so they've. They've lent us the train John John and we got the tracks off him and he installed the track for us. And yeah he's he's list out and he actually said to me you know what Dave? Like I'm glad you kept at me because they were just sitting in storage and it's just a waste that they sit in storage. So yeah, I'm proud to have the are bothth miniature railway. It opens up new visitors because I see it on socials I get sent it and it's like there's really TR. Real train enthusiasts that now come to the deer centre just to see the miniature railway.
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Paul: Yeah. Amazing. I want to come back to all of that. one of the question I had was about the outdoor nurseries. I'm not sure what an outdoor nursery is. Is it that you have toddlers come along or and they just stay out side all day or is it something else?
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David: Yeah it's like the mars ship. It's for bad behaved kids and they get sent out. Joking aside. no, it's yeah we had a bit of space at the front of of the deer centre as you come in because it you. Because it used to be a farm U and then it was a deer farm which everybody then I've been battling for the last three years to to show the tell people we we're not just a deer farm. But yeah it's we had this front area space and you random got you maybe got a random family who knew about it would sit out there who wanted a bit of peace and quiet from the hustle bustle but it never really got used and there's. I should get banned from a site called Sweeney Kaid but there was an Inverness outdoor nursery that that shut down and their yurts came aparent. so we got their yurts and yeah Outdoor Nurses has become a thing in the last decade and it's basically trying to encourage their children to. To wither the stormm. Pardon the pun but rather than sitting in a heated building all day and whatever you are encouraged to be outside getting stuck in about the leaves and and get. Get wet suited what you call them the bodys suits and yeah just go and be a kid and Yeah nature so and then we bring the animal side of things. So it doesn't really affect a visitor experience. It won't. Well hopefully it won't and it I'll make sure it won't like God I'm not going to the Deerer because it's just really young kids but it just brings a different revenue model like you say when the weather. Yes it will still affect me on a Saturday or a Sunday or a school holiday when there's a storm but at least I know during the week we've got a guaranteed amount income regardless of what the weather is.
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Paul: Right.
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David: And we'll have the two yurts and one of them has ones located in the park in the forest and it's got a we fire stove for them and yeah it's. It's. We've had a lot of interest in it and there's one along the road from us called the Secret Garden who are basically. They obviously don't have the animal side but they're completely sold out and waiting list and they reached out to us and brought Sarah along our general manager and want to work with us and I really commended and loving the fact that we are open it up so I said to s I love fellow business people like that and let's do a fif outdoor nursery celebration day at the Deerer. bring their. Their kids and their families and have a day out. We'll open up a special section and barbecue and celebrate the fact that that what we're doing and Wendy Chamberlain and the local MP and Willieny are loving it as well because there's this great area that preschool that a lot of parents because there's shortage of it a lot of parents feel at the council and the councillors should be providing childc care type thing for this sort of thing and for preschool and it's not so're. They're loving the fact that we're also'also helping an issue that they have.
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Paul: So I, think listeners to this, David, will hear that word entrepreneur all over everything you've said, for the last 30 minutes or so. and at the risk of hopefully not upsetting anyone, you know what strikes me in this short conversation is that I think lots of attraction operators, know compared to you, they probably operate with blinkers on you. They have a shop which is in an area of their venue. they have a cafe which is in an area of the venue. They've probably operated it with similar menus, similar products for many years. but there's never a dull moment with you. you know, you're constantly innovating and developing and trying new things. Now, does that come with almost a sort of cycle that you try something, it works, you do more of it, you try something, it doesn't work, you tweak it, you try it again, or do you just keep moving forward?
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David: Yeah, I actually. Was that a thing with the BBC on, on Monday Dundee, and it was actually Lynn Short, the local mp. She came up to me and says, she introduced me as a curious entrepreneur and my first response was, well, I don't know if that's a compliment or a slagging. And she, she said, no, David, I mean that fully complimentary, like you can never keep up with you. But yeah, no going, not going to the question. I'm never going to get everything right. I know that. I know I've got the kind of gift I. Of the gab, so to speak. And I know how to explain things in a positive way. So it sounds like it's going to work and I'll put my full attention on for it to work in a stubborn way. Like back in the day we won. I can't even remember the thing, but it was a big accolade to have this award and it was called Determination to Succeed. And I, when we did the speech, I said, you'll be honest with you, it's determination to be stubborn. And I just like to try new things and not, and not, and, and not follow. like in the brewery space, Brew dog's done amazing things, right, Just, just an example. But they, they had to change things, they had to do things differently for other people to follow that, that model. And I guess they're the perfect example that, that I look at and go, let's, let's try Things differently. The only way you could do things differently is by trying things differently. And there's nothing wrong sometimes with just following other people's way of doing things. But the only way you could step it up is if you try things differently and learn from when you make. When you. Because you're guaranteed and m not always do things right, but when you, if you try 10 things, when you do one thing right, you're hoping that that one thing makes it such a big success that you don't care about the nine failures. And in. In the zoo thing with the page you please. I remember the first time Sarah said to me, o dav, Asa has been in touch, Asa obviously being the Association Scottish visit attractions. I said, all right, it's about, the page you please. And I thought, oh, no, they am I getting in trouble? And Sarah says, no, absolutely not. It's the complete opposite. They want to commend us for what we're doing. They want us to come and speak at their annual conference about the page you please and try and encourage others. And I we get tagged in it when other peoples across the country actually try it. And I love that. And I'll get back when I first did. I would get sent links to other people doing it. Some don't mention it. Inspired by the Deerer. but the best thing about it is, like we've had camper down zoo, the guys that run that over the council come over to speak to Sarah. how's it going? You know, we'had are an li. They came out to ask us how does the M mil model work? And I honestly feel proud because I'm changing it. And the guy with the muddy boots, situation, which was unfortunate with Pady and Trina, but when we were doing the deal and this sort of stuff Pady actually said to me was, like, honestly, when we'seen that, because I'm going to be completely bluntly honest with you, when you came out and said pay as you please, we were in stitches at you. We thought, what an absolute plonker. Like he is just mental. And then he says, fast forward, forward three weeks we're driving past the deer centre, and we've seen the, the cars on the bank and, and how busy you were. And I turned around to Trina, his wife, and was like, maybe he's not as daft as he, as he, as he makes out. And then that's says bad. You know what? Like, appreciate you honestly been bluntly honest with me and I do appreciate, I appreciate that that you can now admit that you called it.
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Paul: Yeah, I think it's safe to say without any shadow of a doubt you are a complete breath of fresh air when it comes to operating a visitor attraction. So I certainly wish you every continued success David. Really delighted much that you could join us today and, and thanks for sharing so much of your insights with us.
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David: Thanks for having me on. And we definitely need to get a proper catch up because we've been doing it for months and months and months but time move is obviously that too busy.
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Paul: You're too busy.
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David: yeah, it, that's what happens when you, you constantly do Christmas grottos, Easter grottos, Halloween grotto. So keeps me out of trouble. Or should I say it doesn't. But there you go. Thank you.
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Paul: Thanks Dave.
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David: Cheers