Consultants to the Visitor Attraction Sector
The Museum Doctor podcast with Gordon Morrison
In this episode, Paul sits down with Gordon Morrison, the head of the Association of Cultural Enterprises, to discuss the evolving landscape of cultural funding and the strategies cultural organisations can use to become more financially self-sustaining.
They delve into the impact of the cost of living crisis on audience numbers and spending, the importance of offering high-value experiences, and the role of technology in enhancing visitor engagement.
Gordon shares insights from a recent benchmarking report, highlighting innovative practices in pricing and revenue generation, and the shift towards a more commercial mindset within cultural venues. Tune in to discover how cultural enterprises can thrive in challenging times.
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Get in touch with the Museum Doctor on Paul@xcentuategroup.com
Transcript
Paul: Hi, Gordon. Good to see you.
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Gordon: Hi Paul. It's a pleasure to see you, sir.
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Paul: It's been a while. Of, course, we met while you were chiefexec of the association of Scottish Visitor Attractions, asa, which you did, incredibly well leading that organisation for many years. But I know you've been with the association of Cultural Enterprises now for over a year, so I thought it might be interesting to start with, you know, some thoughts from you in terms of what ACE does and how's the job going?
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Gordon: Absolutely. Start with the tough questions, Paul. Absolutely, yeah. So, yeah, I've been at dis association for Cultural Enterprises now for just over a year and, the reason why I, decided to go work for the Association Cultural Enterprises is because I could see the direction of travel for the cultural sector. And it was a, slightly worrying picture for the sector, but also I saw a huge amount of opportunity. And this will then explain what Cultural Enterprisesses does. What I saw from the cultural sector is a funding landscape that was radically changing, Paul. Radically changing funding not just for projects, but core funding being drastically reduced, disappearing 100% funding cuts in some cases. And then of course you can also see, rising costs for the sector and for our audiences within the sector as well. And so what does the association of Cultural Enterprises exist for? Well, we are here, to help cultural organationss maximise the commercial returns, make more money. Simple as that. And that was what I saw as a massive, massive opportunity because I'm a massive supporter of the cultural sector. I'massive fan of the cultural sector. I consume culture myself and I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. And the solution for cultural venues of all shapes and sizes just now is they have to become more financially self sustaining. It doesn't matter what shade of government we have in power. The magic money tree just isn't there anymore. So therefore, we have to all learn to make more of our own money and save more of our own money. And that in a nutshell, is what the association of Financial Enterprises is all about.
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Paul: And hopefully it's safe to say you're enjoying the job. Still a year in.
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Gordon: Love it. I absolutely love the job. it's a very privileged job. I'm very lucky to get to do what I do. You know, Paul, I'm out and about all the time. I travel the length and bread to the UK and indeed sometimes beyond the UK as well. I get to meet some incredibly fascinating, incredibly passionate people working in and alongside the cultural sector. And I get to visit some of the most incredible venues that you can imagine across the Len and Breadh of the country. And I get to do things at those venues that other people don't get to do as well. Very often the secret hidden parts of experiences that others are not privileged enough to do. I found myself, for example, on the roof at St Paul's Cathedral the other week, which you're not allowed to go on, and it was fabulous. It was absolutely great. So, yes, I do love the job and I love the fact that the association is a very practical trade association. We're there to make a difference on the sector and that is the most important thing for me. And it gets me up in the morning and gets me excited every single day.
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Paul: So I assume it's fair to say that the cost of living situation is continuing to impact revenue generation strategies for your members. What are the sorts of things that you do to support member organisations?
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Gordon: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think that the two factors here to think about are the cost of living crisis, then the cost of doing business. Priceiss one in the same, of course, but in terms of the cost of living crisis itself and the impact on audiences and visitors, yes, we can still see it. You know, I think that only there are only a few people in the UK who are probably not suffering in some way from the cost of living crisis. The very wealthy. I find that the rest of us still feel it. And you're seeing that in audience numbers just now. The average across the sector, in the UK is we're about 10 to 15% down on where we were pre cost of living crisis, certainly pre pandemic. Paul. So we're not back up to those pre pandemic levels in saying that not everyone is trying to get back up to those pre pandemic levels. You know, a lot of cultural reues now, and you'll know this yourself, you know they dropped visitor numbers during and post the pandemic and they actually found that they, they were delivering a better visitor experience. They were delivering an experience that was more enjoyable to themselves, to their visitors. And so some venues have not have deliberately kept those numbers capped to ensure that they are providing that great experience. The interesting thing from my perspective is that, yes, this is a cost of living crisis, but we're still enduring this now. But people still want experiences, it's still really value experiences. So whilst fewer visitors are visiting as many places, what we are seeing is that when visitors do come and visit one of our Cultural venues, they are willing to spend money, you know, because spend per visit is actually up on pre pandemic and up on last year. Average transaction values up on pre pandemic and up in last year as well. So my feeling is that yes, we are re experiencing across the living crisis still, but a visitor will be happy to spend money if halul f they're getting a really good experience and just that wee bit more cheesy. Choosy. Sorry, a bit more choosy about which experiences they're going to do.
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Paul: So I recall, know back in the day we rarely talked about value, in the sense of the value of a visitor, in monetary terms. It was very much volume driven. and I wonder if part of what we're seeing, based on what you've said, is that it's just that venues are also emphasising that more as well once they have a visitor, looking at opportunities and ways to generate as much income as possible.
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Gordon: I think that's exactly right. And it's not just that. It's also. I think the pandemic has taught us a few lessons as well as a sector. First, the pandemic was hugely difficult for us all. I don't think any of us could have imagined such a difficult period for the sector. it did however give us the chance to reevaluate, look at other opportunities, look at ways in which to diversify income streams, but also look at that visiting experience piece overall. Because you know yourself that when you are at the cold phase every single day, working away to deliver for your visitors and your trustees, it can be quite difficult to take a step back and say, well, are we doing this right? Is this the right thing for us to do? And I think that during the pandemic we had that opportunity to almost hit a reset button in some ways. And one of the things that was really interesting, I was still at Azba obviously during the pandemic and I remember we did a survey on online ticketering and the availability of online ticketering. And at the beginning of the pandemic it was only about 1 in 10 of our members, the visitor attraction sector, that were offering any kind of online booking whatsoever. Fast forward to the end of the pandemic and it was 9 and 10, almost 10 and 10 that were offering that and interested by offering those online booking, opportunities. What the members were also able to do is find out a little bit more about the customers, who's visiting them, why they're visiting Them and then theygin to tailor those experiences a wee for those visitors as well. And I think we're seeing more and more of that happening now than ever before where we are a understanding our visitors a bit better and therefore tailoring offer offers a bit better for our visitors and we are 100% looking to personalise a wee bit more because if you personalise that visitor experience, if you make that individual visitor feel special and as you said previously probably might have been a little bit more of over herd mentality, we don't have that anymore as we try andate those personal experiences and actually create those personal experiences. And we're seeing the ISR respond accordingly through that increase in secondary spend for example. Also it's probably worth saying as well we're seeing a little bit more innovation when it comes to pricing itself as well. You know we certainly saw during the pandemic, sor immediate post pandemic period a bit more use of variable pricing for example. Previously we were always a bit of a static set when it came to placeing you pay one fee the whole year round. Now I'm not going to sit here and say that we are seeing widespread use of dynamic pricing for example because we're absolutely not. We've just done a survey of our members and I think it's only about 7% that have dynamic pricing and I don't think too many of them will be looking to go gung ho into dynamic pricing considering some of the news headlines that we've seen recently about dynamic pricing. But what we are seeing is more moving towards variable pricing and also some moving towards some really innovative ways of doing pricing light. Just pay what you can, give us what you can and the most important thing is you come and the experiences you enjoy the experience that we offer. And interestingly having spoken to a few of those providers who offer those types of experiences. What are they seeing Paul? They're seeing lots more local visitors coming to visit and lots more of those visitors spending money in the cafes, spending money in their shops, that secondary spend increasing. So that's something that we weren't seeing previously. There were too many venues doing that. That is on thery now so some really interesting innovation.
Paul: one of our other podcast interviewees is actually David Hamilton of the Scottish Deer Centre. and I think that's one thing that people will be interested to listen about because I know that's something that David has done bringing gaming sector Entrepreneurship to the visitor attraction world. I wonder if you could share some best practise or success stories from some of your members who you feel are getting it right in terms of revenue generation.
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Gordon: Yeah, of course, absolutely. Again I think the timing of this interview is good Paul because in the last couple of weeks the association has just published its largest ever report, benchmarking report of cultural venues across the UK where we reached out in the summertime to ask our members to provide us with a wealth of data relating to you know, the money they're bringing into retail, catering, ticketing, e commerce, but on top of that we also ask them what's working for you, what's not working for you, what the areas where you seeing real success, what's the areas of potential going forward? And there are a couple of things that came out of that study that I'll share with you just now that I think demonstrate there'some real potential there for the sector in some areas where we're seeing some real toporers within the sector. The first is, and this is, this is coming back to the cost of living crisis Paul. A real big income generator for the sector for those who are taking advantage of it within the sector is premiumization and the delivery of high value experiences. You know we've just, I've literally just talked about cost of living and everyone watching the pens but there are still a wrft of people out there who And I'm not just talking about ultra high net worth individuals, I'm talking about people who value, really value experiences being willing to pay extra for these experiences. And then when we looked at the data that came back through the survey, those operators who have deliberately curated really high value experiences, I seen some really top, top returns to that. One example I'll give from a Scottish perspective is because I've experienced this myself so I'm just going to might as well mention it is Highland Wildlife park in Ed in Brazil. So the Royal Zoolological Society of Scotland they do what they call magic moments experiences and these are opportunities for you and your family to come along and feed any four animals of your choice within the zoo. Feed any four animals of your choice. I was fortunate enough to do this just a few weeks ago and I was able to feed some Siberian tigers or Siberian tiger, they're the biggest tigers in the world. incredible. Absolutely good to be this, to be this close, you know to be face to face, this close to an animal like that. Is a truly moving experience. Now these, you know, normal ticket price to get into the Highline Wildlife Park SP 25 quid, something like that. And then to if you want to do one of these experiences it's more than 10 times that that you're going to play. Considerably more than 10 times that you're going to pay. Those experiences are flying off the shelves. Absolutely flying off the shef. So it's not the most ridiculously priced level of experience. We'm not talking about beyond the level that you and I can afford to do, Paul. But it's far more expensive than a regular visit to an attraction. But we are seeing these experiences really, really take off. Another prime example. I think it's a genius this one. I was in London and I'CHATTING to the guys at the Imperial War Museum and one of my favourite experiences in London is the Churchill War Rooms because I studied Second World War history and I just think it s. It's a fascinating place to visit. But the challenge with the Churchill War Rooms has always been it's a fairly passive experience because everything within the attraction is behind glass. You can't actually get into where your churill actually sat and veryy made these plans. so the Blins there, the clever commercial guys there said o how about we introduce a behind the glass tour? It's pretty much the exact same tour as you get when you go there except this time you are in the room rather than standing, you're beyond the glass rather than behind the glass than before the glass and again able to charge you know, 10 times the money for it. So a really good example of something that doesn't actually cost the attraction operator too much more money to put on but then sees really impressive returns for it. And also it's a great marketing thing for you as well. You know, these types of money can't buy, but absolutely can by experiences. And of course, don't get me wrong, I mentioned this before but some things's been accusations of well, that's just feeding the really wealthy. It creates exclusivity and it means that not everyone can access what a museum, a gallery, a cultural venue can offer. But of course what it actually means by putting on these really high value and expensive experiences you're not necessarily having to put your ticket prices up for everyone else because that is covering the cost for everyone else. So I think that's that's probably looking at the results of the benchmarking study. That's the one area I would Say to any cultural venue just now, any operator out there just now, if you are not, if you have not yet thought about what experiences you can offer that would deliver these really high quality, high value experiences, you need to start looking at it because I don't know you feel, Paul, but I think that every culture reue, has got something unique and special to offer that can be monetized and we just need to think about storytelling a wee bit better sometimes and then deliver those experiences.
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Paul: Yeah, that's a great example and it's making me think about a museum of transport that I'm supporting at the moment. They've got 50 of their vehicles in a, in a storage facility that nobody ever gets to, to visit and that's a tiny venue, less than 20,000 visitors a year. So you're absolutely right and actually goes back to the beginning of the call where you were talking about you get to do things and you know, it's a talking point. You know, most of us like to do things that not everybody does. you know, it's maybe bragging rights, but it's also that opportunity to say, well I've done that, you know, and how exciting was that? Particularly you've got an interest in the subject matter.
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Gordon: I don't mind seeing Paul, when I came to visit you, the transport museum, now you were the highlight of my visit, of course you were Paul, but however, you also got me to sit in Chitty Chitty bang bang. I remember that. And that, and that in itself was something I'had dined out on and talked about for many months after that. Showing people the picture of me sitting in Chitty Chitty bang bang which, I mean, that's a unique special experience, it really is.
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Paul: We should start charging for that. If only we were actually allowed to do that! So you've talked a little bit there about innovation. you know, are there other sort of innovative practises you can think of that members are applying that seem to be working? Is there anything else, any other highlights from the survey that you can think of?
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Gordon: Well, I mean, I've already mentioned the pricing side of things obviously and I just want to return to that for one second because I think it is still a missed opportunity for the most part. All. the survey showed that still about 80% of the membership, or sorry of the entirety in the cultural sector, it is still operating with fixed pricing. So no matter what time of the year you visit, you're paying say eight pounds to get in and that's it, that's what you pay. That is a huge missed opportunity for the sector. We do not need to go down this route of dynamic pricing. I'm m not advocating for dynamic pricing at all but however, I think that it's only common sense that we take a wee bit more of a flexible approach to pricing. And one of the examples that we give in the survey of that was at Castle Howard in Yorkshire, one of the most beautiful, stately homes that you can visit. And they have very successfully introduced differential pricing there so that you know, you might be paying a different price on a Saturday, for example, when you pay on a Wednesday. And they have seen their turnover increase quite dramatically as a result of that. And of course it's not all just about charging more at weekends because what it means is you can reduce your prices at other times of the year. and that opens up the cultural venue to perhaps audiences that couldn't afford to come if you only operated with fixed pricing. You know, they have seen a diversity to an audience as well. that is really positive. So it's assisting the meeting, not just the commercial as, but also the charitable aims as well. And I think that more venues need to get a wee bit more adaptable when it comes to their pricing. and like I say, I'm not I am not here to see dynamic pricing is the way forward because I'm not sure that is, however we can be a bit more flexible.
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Paul: So Interesting because what you've just described there took me back to 1999 when I was GM of a sea life centre for Merlin. and this particular sea life centre was on a promenade. And if the promenade was busy come 3 o'clock we would carry out an A frame, stick a banner on it and The Banner said £2 off for the next hour and it would literally drive a couple of hundred extra visitors in that hour. Absolutely unbelievable. So we tend to think of these things like dynamic pricing as, you know, a fairly new thing. But they have been around for a long time. And that maybe brings me on to the next question.
You know, we did that because, you know, Merlin was an incredibly commercial organisation. and lessons I learned with Merlin have stayed with me through my whole career. but I wonder in terms of what you now do for a living and who you work for, whether there is a correlation between a leadership that has a commercial mindset. because some leaders are commercially focused, others naturally less so. is that something that you tend to see following through. If the leadership is commercial maybe that has more of a focus for the organisation.
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​​Gordon: 100% Paul. That is undoubtedly the case and I think this is where we're possibly seeing the biggest change in the cultural sector just now. I for my sins work directly in museums. I was a commercial manager in a group of museums and I, I felt at that time that commercial was still a bit of a dirty word dare we say. You know when I talked about me being a commercial manager you know I could see something that I was almost I'm not going to say a look down on that's not fair but maybe frowned on might be the right thing to say. Oh, oh you're that guy that is that tries to make money. Oh that's that's not what we're all about. That's not what running a museum is about. Unless I running a cultural venue. You don't do it to make money. It's not really the purpose on it. But however with the challenges that we have seen in funding if you want to deliver on your core charity to believes you have to exist first you actually have to be there to be able to do that and actually commercial activities can help you support your charitable aims give you a bang up to date example of this. last week I was privileged to of the opportunity to attend the the ten year birthday celebration of Hampshire Cultural Trust and their CEO Paul Sappwell introduced their new five year strategy and one of the pillars of the strategy is that they are now proudly commercial. Proudly commercial. And what he was meaning when he said tudly commercial is that they are investing in their catering operations, their retail operations their e commerce operations to ensure that they are integral to the overall experience for their consumers, for the visitors, for their customers as they call them Again they are now proudly commercial. They're call customers and by investing to create these really good retail experiences really good hetering experiences that are part of overall experience. So they're not just a bolt on they are an integral part of the experience. By doing that they seeing they are then going to see the money to the returns that they need to then support the rest of the various as and objectives and interestingly enough when we I'm just going return to my survey for one second Paul that's one of the other things that we did see is that those venues who invest in their commercial offerings and also invest in advertising the commercial offerings but actually selling the fact that they've got these really great commercial experiences. They are then seeing that paid back tenfold. That's a big lesson for the sector there. But interesting. Paul is one of those, Pulware was one of those new generation of leaders who has a more commercial background perhaps than you might have seen previously. In the cultural sector. You previously some of the top jobs, you know, they would tend to be filled by maybe someone who was an artistic director before or maybe a curator. More and more now the top jobs in the sector are being filled with people with commercial backgrounds and they get it, they just get how to run a business. And so more and more comfortable venues are now being run like your business. That does not mean in Congress at all to the charites, it's supporting the delivery of the charities.
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Paul: And of course the inconvenient truth is they are businesses. they may have registered charity status but they're still businesses. yeah, you're sending me on lots of trips down memory lane, here Gordon. And I was lucky enough for a few years to run a museum, a science museum in the US and always keen to visit other venues and learn from other leaders. And I remember visiting the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia and the CEO at that time was a guy called Dennis Win who you know, at that point was, you know, a titan in the sort of science centre worlds, known globally. And he and I had a conversation and he used a four word term which just resonated with everything that I'd come to believe in that sector. And I think it's true today. And you've just highlighted it and he said no margin, no mission. And that is the truth. If I could have coined it, I would have. But I thought what a great expression. Because the reality is if through some means or another, if you're not generating an income, the things that you really want to do are the things that generally cost you money, they don't make you money. The things that are high impact and really engaging. so you need those other support elements to be in place in order to do that. and I'll, I think in the.
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Gordon: Back, I think in the back of this, podcast, Paul, we need to get no margin, no mission T shirts made up. That's what we need to do and discuss them around the.
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Paul: Get some product. Get some product made up. so we've covered a lot of ground already. you know, one area I've dabbled in, and maybe didn't come to a conclusion with but the use of technology in terms of being more commercial revenue, gener generating and I guess things like the dynamic pricing that we've mentioned that that has a technology element to it. But is there other, anything else that you've seen? you know, do you think that has more potential in the future?
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Gordon: I think it does have more potential in the future but what I can certainly tell you Paul is that anytime the association puts on any of our webinars or master classes where we involve, where we say the topic is going to be on technological advancement they're always the ones that sell out before anything else because people are really interested in this arena perhaps sometimes a bit fearful as well about what does this mean, what's this actually going to look like and how do we keep pace with technological advancement considering that the major, certainly the majority of organisations that I work with within my membership they are It's maybe one person doing five or six different tasks and one of those tasks maybe it maybe you looking at the technological side of things and so there's always an element of fear with it. I think for me if we're talking about opportunity, technological opportunity, one of the areas that I've seeing when I look worldwide is that technology can really help tell your story effectively and can help deliver a really impactful, meaningful visitor experience. It can dramatically change the visitor experience in a very positive way. one of the examples that I saw this a wee by ago that just blew my mind. It just absolutely blew my mind. And don't get me wrong, I don't think this is one that it'appropriate for everyone but it shows you the degree of technological advancement that we're seeing with AI technology, ar technology as well. It's quite incredible. there's a Holocaust museum in the United States of America and students I wasn't privileged enough to visit this myself. I saw it online, I watched this online. Students were invited into a room where sitting on stage was a Holocaust survivor. But it wasn't a real Holocaust survivor. The Holocaust survivor was dead. They had died a few years ago but they had been recorded. They'd been recorded. And I'm not even sure quite how they did this ball but it's really incredible. The students were able to ask live questions, live questions. This hologram of a person and the person was able to answer the question directly straight away. The answers were so. And that as I understand it was a combination of AI and er Technology working in synergy and what it created was a personalised moving experience for those people that we're in that room. So rather than. Technology can sometimes be a wee bit of a disconnect experience, if you know what I mean. It can take you away from the experience because you're just so conscious of the technology itself. Well this was the. Well oppite this was you brought right into the heart of the experience. It enhance the storytelling elements and I think that's the direction of travel that we are going to see in the sector. We're going to see technology help us tell our amazing stories. I often think about it, what's going to happen. One of my favourite museums in Scotland is the Mining Museum in Newton Bridge. and what makes that experience so great is that you can still get a tour done by the miners that works that coal mine. But they are in what, late 70s now or some of them in the early 80s. They're not going to do that for much longer. They are unfortunately dying out. Whatably need is a technological solution to that. So you're still getting that personalised impactful story but delivered with it with. Delivered through technology for perpetuity, you know, in perpetuity. Sorry. And then that's where we're going to go as a sector and that's how technology can really help advances and ultimately Paul, with my commercial hat on a great story is what makes you money. If you delivered a great story, people are far more likely to potentially donate some more to you, but they're certainly more likely to buy something out your shop, out y. Your cafe as well.
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Paul: Yeah, I think You know, one of the things that's resonating very clearly from this conversation, Gordon, is you know, I knew this I guess, but I hadn't really thought about it until we've spoken. But this connection between the experience and the commercial side, if you get the, if you get the experience right, then there's a natural opportunity in terms of the commercial side of things. If you don't have the experience then it's very difficult probably to convert that into a commercial benefit for the organisation. so I think that's really interesting. So actually a starting point for a lot of venues probably is to look at the experience that you're offering and then looking at how you monetize it rather than maybe looking at what you currently have and looking at how you monetize it. Because there is that, you know, there's probably something in there about that value proposition that if you're offering more as you described earlier, then you can charge for that in different ways.
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Gordon: You're were hundred percent right, Paul. And if you. Look, I'm not saying that we'getting everything absolutely right at the association, but if you look at our training programme and our events programme, we offer a huge amount of training. We put lot, put a lot of effort into our training programme looking at experience because it comes from the visit experience. If you'd get that visit experience right, everything else will stem from it. The very best, very best attractions in the UK and beyond. What's the one thing they've got in common? They deliver a blood great visited experience. Look at, And this is not one of my members because they wouldn't be allowed to join us because they are purely, purely toial business. They are not a charity. if you look at the Harry Potter experience, it's a wonderful experience. They deliver a truly wonderful experience that they deliver. and then they make money hand over f through the shops, their coies etc. On the back of it. But they also don those really well. That's. They also, if you look at what they. That comess back to my previous point. Don't have your shop as a bolt on. Don't have your cafe as a bolt on. Make them integral to your overall experience and you'll see the benefit. And one final point'll make as well in this, and this is backed up by a survey results as well. It's where do you need to invest? But where are the areas that you really need to invest and what the key component is? And this won't surprise you. Invest in your people. Invest in your people that work in your venues. They are the ones that are going to be your storytellers. And that's. I'm not just talking about your front of house and you know, visitor services staff and talking to the guys that work in your cafes, the guys that work in your shops as well. these are the people who will sell your experience for you. And that's for. The secondary spending comes from you, the upsell people. we run courses on things like upselling. Upselling. It sounds like it's something that's really difficult to do. It's not. It's just talking to people and then when they say something to you, you can then respond and say oh, if you like that, you might like this as well. Or are you aware that they're doing this just. Are you aware of a special exhibition on in this. You know it's not difficult stuff it's communication and so invest in your people. Those that do invest in the people a they retain their staff and we know that staff retention is a problem in the sector pol and it costs money to constantly replace that. Those who invest in the staff retain the staff and those staff then reward them through delivering great customer service and telling great stories to their visitors.
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Paul: Isn't it funny that you know I can recall a situation about 10 years ago where I was speaking to some cafe staff in an organisation I was leading and trying really hard at the you encouraging them to sell up and they felt really uncomfortable because they felt it was too commercial and you know my view was well it's good customer service, you know the customer can say no but if you don't offer then you know you'll never get a yes. I think that has changed. but it's just interesting that you know the notion of selling, you know selling is not a bad thing. and I think customers are sophisticated enough these days to expect you to try, you know that you're going to try and sell to them so do it well and capture the opportunity.
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Gordon: Selling a service. I've said this all the time for selling is service that's and don't get me wrong we are still in our journey with this because I think it's almost, it's built into our nature Scottish people as British people that oh we don't like crash sales, we're not Americans you know but however this is good customer service to offer something to you that's what it is. I like you say the worst they can do Paul say no thanks, that's not for easious thing.
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Paul: Yeah, absolutely. You know we wouldn't have a thing called gift aid you know if we weren't willing to do things. I have one last question for you now Gordon and that's you know again I'm sort of harking back. I started my career in, in the attraction world in probably one of the most commercially focused organisations there is. and it was very competitive and it was quite anti competitive as well and I think one of the very positive things I've seen during my career is just how much more collaborative different organisations are and I wondered you know if you had any examples of different types of organisations working together to try and gain some competitive commercial advantage.
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Gordon: Yeah, I think that firstly I think we are very lucky in this sector Paul that We are collaborative, we are collegiate because, I've certainly worked in other sectors that are not and actually there are other sectors within tourism for example, that are not particularly collaborative in collegiate. If you've got a good idea, they will hold on to that idea of themselves and hide it from view from everyone elsewhere as in our sector. One of the things that makes my job a joy and considerably easier is that when someone has a good idea in our sector, I say to them can you share that idea with the rest of the sector please? And they say yes, of course, we'd be delighted to share that idea with the W, etc. I do have a slight fear though, if you don't mind me going off on a slight tangent for a second here, Paul. My fear is that we are going to get more competitive as a sector, because, because of what we actually discussed about half an hour ago, there are fewer visitors now. There are fewer visitors experiencing our experiences. When they do experience them, they are spending money. My worry is then they say, well rather them. I think just now that the attitude is that if we elevate each other we all rise together, you know. So if one person comes to visit, sorry, if you've invested in, in you know, the Transport Museum for example, in Dundee, then the hope would be for someone working at Dundy Heritage Trust for example alough that means they're going to come to the as well hopefully. Well they filed up there and for the most part that does happen. I think we extend the footprint, people will come and experience more than one experience. My worry is we move away from that and people say well I've only got a limited pot of money to spend. I'm going to go and spend all of it at Dundee Transport Museum. And I'm not going to go to the Discovery, I'm not going to go to V Dund Dund Scienceer. That is my concern. And we then get a wee bit more selfish with each other and don't share as much as we have done. But the positive thing is we're not seeing that just now and there's great examples of partnership out there. I was speaking to the CEO, the Mary Rose Trust a few weeks ago, a few months ago now actually. And they've done a great partnership with the Royal Museum of the Royal Navy where they're close to each other in Portsmouth and they put on a sort of shared ticket, shared experience, come and experience, both venues at the same time, one after the other. they both invested collaboratively in marketing. They'both invested collaboratively in the experience itself and it's paid massive dividends for them. So I think overall we still have a sector that is looking to support each other and collaboratively work together. We fear as we get more competitive with each other as we go forward. Sounds like I'm going to end this in a negative. Think it something different. Questions.
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Paul: Well, you know, being competitive is no bad thing. You know. You know we like to think that all of the organisations we visit are ambitious. and I think being competitive is okay. I certainly see that. You know, there's much more willingness these days for organisations to come together and you know, it's often the leaders but it's also often the marketing teams or the commercial teams. certainly on a city level I see that locally. so hopefully that will continue. I think one area that is challenging is fundraising and funding, but's that's a different stream I guess.
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Gordon: Yeaheah. Absoute. Absoutely.
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Paul: Thank you so much Gordon. I know you're incredibly busy, hopping around the uk, visiting lots of different places. So really appreciate you joining us on the podcast today.
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Gordon: It's always a joy to speak to you Paul, thanks very much for having me.
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Paul: Thanks Gordon.